В конце прошлой недели на форуме началась активная дискуссия, автор которой пожаловался, что ему очень не нравится нынешняя система закаленных в бою и кованых титанами предметов. Свое недовольство он объяснил тем, что бывает весьма неприятно рейдить круглыми сутками ради одного необходимого аксессуара и не получать его, в то время как другой игрок добывает предмет без рейдов, а лишь понемножку выполняя задания. Игрок сообщил, что неограниченная возможность улучшения вещей в простом одиночном контенте умаляет усилия и заслуги других людей, которые потратили большое количество времени на добычу такой же вещи в самых сложных групповых занятиях.
К обсуждению присоединился специалист по работе с сообществом Bornakk, который позадавал участникам дискуссии дополнительные вопросы и поделился своей точкой зрения на этот вопрос. Вот основные моменты и вопросы его сообщений:
Titanforging and Warforging make me upsetMaybe it is just me being salty or maybe it really truly bothers me, but with the time that I invest into playing this game. I really mean invest. It upsets me when I play at a higher skill then most players, yet the reward is diminished because of Titanforging and Warforging system. I could careless if the highest content rewarded the highest rewards based upon the content completed. I.E if you run mythic+ or mythics raids, and the highest reward now is 425 you receive 425s as your base drop mythic raids and the weekly cache for mythic+, and other difficulty can titanforge and warforge up to that. But when the top tier drop isn’t guaranteed and its all on luck, it bothers me. There is no more sense of best in slot because you really can’t achieve it. It seems like the Devs like Hazzikostas won’t really change it now, but if he was still raiding with Elitist Jerks back in BC this kind of thing he would totally be up in arms about. This really in my opinion is hurting the game since the induction. It makes me sad.
Personally I do enjoy when I get a good Warforge or Titanforge on something. It could easily be on yet another pair of gloves but it keeps me guessing on what will happen next.
I really don’t think much about what gear others have as I never feel like I am out-gearing someone who does higher content and from doing some PvP, they make it quite clear that they can crush me.
Sure there is. You get the item best for the slot with out bonus forging. Then you have a small chance for a bonus upgrade that you normally wouldn’t have. BiS has always been a thing to work towards. You still can.
It should never be seen as a bad thing that you have a chance at still get useful loot even after you have been farming a boss for weeks. I would much rather a small chance that a raid member gets a useful item rather then vendor/de fodder only.
I am of a similar mindset. I can still figure out the items that are best, if something that is worse than BiS gets a titanforge I can figure that out IF I get the BiS, but that tends to take a while. At least in this scenario I have something to ponder over and (potentially) a decent item.
As has been mentioned, it also means there continues to be a chance at things while I keep playing. If I cap everything in a few weeks I feel like I might get bored easier or the flip side is that I never see the item I want drop and never have anything for the slot.
You should read this, so that you understand, psychologically, how this negatively affects the players. Sure, some don’t care, but others do.
Replacing an item with zero effort? How do you get the item in the first place then if you aren’t doing anything?
In what ways do you personally feel that you truly earned an item? Like what game feature qualifies for this and which don’t?
When you have been playing regularly and you see someone who has a higher item level, let’s just say full Mythic Raid gear, how do you react to that? Do you care?
I am looking through all the posts to try and understand people while also giving my personal thoughts. It does have some back and forth so please try and understand that the entire community doesn’t necessarily agree on the topic.
People are trying to get you to understand but you refuse to listen. If you are an unlucky player like myself what can I do to get the best gear? Why would I want to keep going into a raid when I get no upgrades every week? Before the changes were made to world quest to give 370 ilvl gear I was 367 through 2 months of Uldir. How is that fun? How is fun to see people who play less then you pop in the raid and walk away with titanforged gear and BiS items? It burns you out when you realize you will not get the items who want because you just aren’t luck enough to get them. You have made the gearing system into the power ball lottery and the chance to win are slime and none for some of us.
It sounds like you do a decent amount of raiding, but of all the avenues for gear, how many of them do you do regularly? Like faction assaults, emissaries, conquest capping, warfronts, etc.
If someone is doing all of these avenues for gearing how do you feel your overall gear item level should compare to them?
The chance is technically the same for you to get things compared to others, but I do understand how some people get like the awesome weapon on their first run – I have been seeing this since Molten Core though so it isn’t a new development. If others keep getting items, do you trade with them at all?
I understand your point of view, my problem is time now. Before BFA my limited time playing the game didn’t hurt me. I could commit to 2 days of raiding with my friends and maybe a couple hours more a week outside that. Now it just doesn’t work, my style of play doesn’t work for the current gaming model in WoW so it is what it is. I just wasn’t ready to stop playing but things change and game has too I just got to old.
I don’t quite understand how your play style doesn’t work though and not sure if this is really related to TF/WF.
You are focusing on raiding (it sounds like) and getting toward the item level of that raid and you aren’t putting in extra hours to maximize gear. Is that right? So if you aren’t putting in a bunch of extra hours, is your gear bothering you because you used to do that and you aren’t used to being a lower item level than the others you play with?
Let’s be clear here that “zero effort” isn’t literally zero effort. It’s shorthand for an amount of effort so minimal as to be trivial.
I see what you are saying about the “zero effort”, but in a related conversation, if you are doing all of the sources of gear it does take time and a commitment. Do you feel that if someone is doing an organized raid for 4ish hours a week they should without question be a higher item level than someone who doesn’t raid but likes to do a variety of different things – often by themself – but plays for 20ish hours a week?
Loot feels earned when your fellow players give it to you.
How does it feel if you get passed over on receiving the same item multiple times in a row?
In your opinion, should mythic plus and organized raiding be the only sources of loot and everything else gives some flatline blue gear?
As an organised raider, it’s immeasurably more satisfying looking at the loot we earned, rather than the single piece I earned. Anyone who’s ever complained about item passovers were either underperforming or plain didn’t deserve it.
Bring back Master Loot.
So in your case, is your concern is more about the loot system and less about WF/TF?
Also, I understand where you are coming from as an organized raider. How much do you feel we should consider the play styles of others when it comes to rewards? We really try to cover a wide range of play styles and how concerned are you with what items those other people have?
Now it seems based on what you have said is that the developers want us to do all aspects of the game in order to get gear and the challenge we have sought. You can no longer focus on things that appeal to you, now you have to jump in all things for the satisfaction you used to get.
Why do you feel you need to do all of the content? You can do the content that you enjoy and you will get rewarded for it. Yes, there are other avenues to gear up and it makes sense to do a bunch of them if you are pushing content, but how come it’s not optional based on your play style/time? There can be long gaps where I don’t do any PvP and could be missing out on gear but that only affects me if I’m trying to squeeze out every item level – I prefer to just focus on things I want to do with the time I have.
Let’s see here… If you want to stay competitive on your character you have to do all the content available. That is how you guys have designed the game. I would love to just raid and get everything I need but I can’t. I have to do islands and world quests to keep my neck level acceptable to stay on the raid team. I have to do my weekly M+ for my Tuesday lootbox.I would be dumb to not do the warfront quest because for some reason you guys give 400 ilvl gear for this “content” that is easier than LFR which gives 370 gear.
Think about this… afk’ing in a warfront gives the same quality of gear as Heroic Jaina. Why?
I know you removed the part where I mentioned ‘pushing content’ and such, but it sounds like you feel there are just too many sources for loot and so it’s a large time commitment to keep up with all of them based on the requirements of the raid group that you have joined. Is that right?
Also, how much gear do you get each week from the warfront vs. the raid up to and including Heroic Jaina? I have a hunch one is much higher than the other. 😉
It’s about both, and in equal parts a concern.
The loot system is completely disruptive towards organised and team efforts, making progression feel less like a team commitment and responsibility, and more inconsiderate to other players.
WF/TF is incredibly harmful to these teams, especially when a particular player might constantly achieve good rolls. I want to be able to kill a boss on the hardest difficulty and receive a reward equal to the effort I put in, having a Mythic boss drop gear under the current max makes me hate how I have the be lucky to achieve and actual BiS piece. It needs to be 425, socketed, with leech.
Just speaking hypothetical, if WF/TF existed for lower level gear, but like Mythic raiding always 100% had the BiS pieces, would you be satisfied? Even if you don’t do that content?
You should consider loot distribution first-hand, most of us still want Masterloot.
Rewards should equal the difficulty of the content, and time commitment should maybe have a factor, handing out endgame gear, and even having it “possibly” be the best gear possible is super dissatisfying as a player.
Has there ever been a point while playing the game where you haven’t had the time/ability to be pushing content? I know we have a dedicated crowd here (General Discussion represent!) but I’m trying to understand your history as well as others to see if they have been in other positions and how the rewards worked for them.
Concerned enough to peer over logs and RaiderIO when doing PuG content. There is almost no way of telling if a player actually earned their gear anymore.
It’s incredibly harmful to the game and community.
But when doing PuG content, why does it matter how they earned it? What content are you doing that requires this scrutiny? Are you pushing Mythic+ with PuGs and having issues? Personally I just roll with things as some under-geared players are pretty good at the game and if someone is making mistakes I try and help them out a bit or just focus on what I can do to help the group.
(I really enjoy these discussive posts, keep it up :+1:)
My guildies and I had a discussion about pugging recently actually. We were talking about how the LFG only shows ilvl and how that hardly ever is indicative of the player’s ability (for better or worse). Sure, we could literally just pick at random to fill the slot (and ignore mistakes and help em out), but if we wanna get through the content it in a timely manner, of course we want someone qualified. So in that sense, if you don’t know if that player earned their 400 avg ilvl equivalent, how do you know what they are actually qualified for?
What content are you doing for this? How many people do you think have a 400 item level average from just doing like warfronts and world quests? Have you come across people with solid raid experience who haven’t run a specific dungeon? (I have)
The warfront quest, emissaries, M+ weekly lootbox, and world boss give way too high of gear. And the fact that these can titanforge to Mythic raid or 2400 PvP rating levels is absurd. Yes it might be only 1 piece every couple weeks, but it makes gear and ilvl meaningless. You don’t look forward to a specific drop anymore because the next time you afk in that warfront, or open your lootbox on Tuesday, you can replace any piece of gear.
Can you expand on how that trickle of items from the sources make gear and item-level meaningless?
Is it accurate to say that you no longer look forward to a drop, even if it’s a big upgrade, because there might be something else that replaces it soon? When there are like two weapons available in a raid and one is better for you, do you ignore the weaker one even if it’s a solid upgrade?
Absolutely. That’s how it used to be. You would look and say, ok I need something off these 4 bosses and don’t need anything from these 4. At that point you could swap out for someone in your guild who needed something from those bosses you didn’t need.
The idea of achieving BiS gear is a good thing for an rpg. There should be an end point and a goal you can reach. The never ending carrot on a stick gear method works for ARPGs like Diablo, but it’s terrible in an MMO.
Have you ever felt, at any point, that there isn’t enough to do in this game?